Depressed dogs, cats with OCD — what animal madness means for us humans | Laurel Braitman

Oliver was an extremely dashing, handsome, charming and largely unstable male that I completely lost my heart to. (Laughter) He was a Bernese mountain dog, and my ex-husband and I adopted him, and about six months in, we realized that he was a mess. He had such paralyzing separation anxiety that we couldn’t leave him alone. Once, he jumped out of our third floor apartment. He ate fabric. He ate things, recyclables. He hunted flies that didn’t exist. He suffered from hallucinations. He was diagnosed with a canine compulsive disorder and that’s really just the tip of the iceberg. But like with humans, sometimes it’s six months in before you realize that the person that you love has some issues. (Laughter) And most of us do not take the person we’re dating back to the bar where we met them or give them back to the friend that introduced us, or sign them back up on (Laughter) We love them anyway, and we stick to it, and that is what I did with my dog. And I was a — I’d studied biology. I have a Ph.D. in history of science from MIT, and had you asked me 10 years ago if a dog I loved, or just dogs generally, had emotions, I would have said yes, but I’m not sure that I would have told you that they can also wind up with an anxiety disorder, a Prozac prescription and a therapist. But then, I fell in love, and I realized that they can, and actually trying to help my own dog overcome his panic and his anxiety, it just changed my life. It cracked open my world. And I spent the last seven years, actually, looking into this topic of
mental illness in other animals. Can they be mentally ill like people, and if so, what does it mean about us? And what I discovered is that I do believe they can suffer from mental illness, and actually looking and trying
to identify mental illness in them often helps us be better friends to them and also can help us better understand ourselves. So let’s talk about diagnosis for a minute. Many of us think that we can’t know what another animal is thinking, and that is true, but any of you in relationships — at least this is my case — just because you ask someone that you’re with or your parent or your child how they feel doesn’t mean that they can tell you. They may not have words to explain what it is that they’re feeling, and they may not know. It’s actually a pretty recent phenomenon that we feel that we have to talk to someone to understand their emotional distress. Before the early 20th century, physicians often diagnosed emotional distress in their patients just by observation. It also turns out that thinking about mental illness in other animals isn’t actually that much of a stretch. Most mental disorders in the United States are fear and anxiety disorders, and when you think about it, fear and anxiety are actually really extremely
helpful animal emotions. Usually we feel fear and anxiety
in situations that are dangerous, and once we feel them, we then are motivated to move away from whatever is dangerous. The problem is when we begin to feel fear
and anxiety in situations that don’t call for it. Mood disorders, too, may actually just be the unfortunate downside of being a feeling animal, and obsessive compulsive disorders also are often manifestations of
a really healthy animal thing which is keeping yourself clean and groomed. This tips into the territory of mental illness when you do things like compulsively over-wash your hands or paws, or you develop a ritual that’s so extreme that you can’t sit down to a bowl of food unless you engage in that ritual. So for humans, we have the
“Diagnostic and Statistical Manual,” which is basically an atlas of the currently agreed-upon mental disorders. In other animals, we have YouTube. (Laughter) This is just one search I did for “OCD dog” but I encourage all of you to look at “OCD cat.” You will be shocked by what you see. I’m going to show you just a couple examples. This is an example of shadow-chasing. I know, and it’s funny and in some ways it’s cute. The issue, though, is that dogs
can develop compulsions like this that they then engage in all day. So they won’t go for a walk, they won’t hang out with their friends, they won’t eat. They’ll develop fixations like chasing their tails compulsively. Here’s an example of a cat named Gizmo. He looks like he’s on a stakeout but he does this for many, many, many hours a day. He just sits there and he will paw and paw and paw at the screen. This is another example of what’s considered a stereotypic behavior. This is a sun bear at the
Oakland Zoo named Ting Ting. And if you just sort of happened upon this scene, you might think that Ting Ting is just playing with a stick, but Ting Ting does this all day, and if you pay close attention and if I showed you guys
the full half-hour of this clip, you’d see that he does the exact same thing in the exact same order, and he spins the stick in the exact same way every time. Other super common behaviors that you may see, particularly in captive animals, are pacing stereotypies or swaying stereotypies, and actually, humans do this too, and in us, we’ll sway, we’ll move from side to side. Many of us do this, and sometimes it’s an effort to soothe ourselves, and I think in other animals
that is often the case too. But it’s not just stereotypic behaviors that other animals engage in. This is Gigi. She’s a gorilla that lives at the Franklin Park Zoo in Boston. She actually has a Harvard psychiatrist, and she’s been treated for a mood disorder among other things. Many animals develop mood disorders. Lots of creatures — this horse is just one example — develop self-destructive behaviors. They’ll gnaw on things or do other things that may also soothe them, even if they’re self-destructive, which could be considered similar to the ways that some humans cut themselves. Plucking. Turns out, if you have fur or feathers or skin, you can pluck yourself compulsively, and some parrots actually have been studied to better understand trichotillomania,
or compulsive plucking in humans, something that affects 20 million Americans right now. Lab rats pluck themselves too. In them, it’s called barbering. Canine veterans of conflicts of Iraq and Afghanistan are coming back with what’s
considered canine PTSD, and they’re having a hard time reentering civilian life when they come back from deployments. They can be too scared to
approach men with beards or to hop into cars. I want to be careful and be clear, though. I do not think that canine PTSD is the same as human PTSD. But I also do not think that my PTSD is like your PTSD, or that my anxiety or that my sadness is like yours. We are all different. We also all have very different susceptibilities. So two dogs, raised in the same household, exposed to the very same things, one may develop, say, a
debilitating fear of motorcycles, or a phobia of the beep of the microwave, and another one is going to be just fine. So one thing that people ask me pretty frequently: Is this just an instance of humans driving other animals crazy? Or, is animal mental illness just
a result of mistreatment or abuse? And it turns out we’re actually so much more complicated than that. So one great thing that has happened to me is recently I published a book on this, and every day now that I open my email or when I go to a reading or even when I go to a cocktail party, people tell me their stories of the animals that they have met. And recently, I did a reading in California, and a woman raised her hand
after the talk and she said, “Dr. Braitman, I think my cat has PTSD.” And I said, “Well, why? Tell me a little bit about it.” So, Ping is her cat. She was a rescue, and she used to live with an elderly man, and one day the man was vacuuming and he suffered a heart attack, and he died. A week later, Ping was discovered in the apartment alongside the body of her owner, and the vacuum had been running the entire time. For many months, up to I think
two years after that incident, she was so scared she couldn’t be in
the house when anyone was cleaning. She was quite literally a scaredy cat. She would hide in the closet. She was un-self-confident and shaky, but with the loving support of her family, a lot of a time, and their patience, now, three years later, she’s actually a happy, confident cat. Another story of trauma and
recovery that I came across was actually a few years ago. I was in Thailand to do some research. I met a monkey named Boonlua, and when Boonlua was a baby, he was attacked by a pack of dogs, and they ripped off both of his legs and one arm, and Boonlua dragged himself to a monastery, where the monks took him in. They called in a veterinarian,
who treated his wounds. Eventually, Boonlua wound up at an elephant facility, and the keepers really decided
to take him under their wing, and they figured out what he liked, which, it turned out, was mint Mentos and Rhinoceros beetles and eggs. But they worried, because he
was social, that he was lonely, and they didn’t want to put
him in with another monkey, because they thought with just one arm, he wouldn’t be able to defend himself or even play. And so they gave him a rabbit, and Boonlua was immediately a different monkey. He was extremely happy to be with this rabbit. They groomed each other,
they become close friends, and then the rabbit had bunnies, and Boonlua was even happier than he was before, and it had in a way given him a reason to wake up in the morning, and in fact it gave him such a reason to wake up that he decided not to sleep. He became extremely protective of these bunnies, and he stopped sleeping, and he would sort of nod off while trying to take care of them. In fact, he was so protective and so affectionate with these babies that the sanctuary eventually had to take them away from him because he was so protective, he was worried that their mother might hurt them. So after they were taken away, the sanctuary staff worried that he would fall into a depression, and so to avoid that, they gave him another rabbit friend. (Laughter) My official opinion is that
he does not look depressed. (Laughter) So one thing that I would really like people to feel is that you really should feel empowered to make some assumptions about the creatures that you know well. So when it comes to your dog or your cat or maybe your one-armed monkey that you happen to know, if you think that they are traumatized or depressed, you’re probably right. This is extremely anthropomorphic, or the assignation of human characteristics onto non-human animals or things. I don’t think, though, that that’s a problem. I don’t think that we can not anthropomorphize. It’s not as if you can take your
human brain out of your head and put it in a jar and then use it to think about another animal thinking. We will always be one animal wondering about the emotional experience of another animal. So then the choice becomes, how
do you anthropomorphize well? Or do you anthropomorphize poorly? And anthropomorphizing poorly is all too common. (Laughter) It may include dressing your corgis
up and throwing them a wedding, or getting too close to exotic wildlife because you believe that you had a spiritual connection. There’s all manner of things. Anthropomorphizing well, however, I believe is based on accepting our animal
similarities with other species and using them to make assumptions that are informed about other
animals’ minds and experiences, and there’s actually an entire industry that is in some ways based
on anthropomorphizing well, and that is the psychopharmaceutical industry. One in five Americans is currently
taking a psychopharmaceutical drug, from the antidepressants
and antianxiety medications to the antipsychotics. It turns out that we owe this entire psychopharmaceutical arsenal to other animals. These drugs were tested in non-human animals first, and not just for toxicity but for behavioral effects. The very popular antipsychotic Thorazine first relaxed rats before it relaxed people. The antianxiety medication Librium was given to cats selected for
their meanness in the 1950s and made them into peaceable felines. And even antidepressants
were first tested in rabbits. Today, however, we are not just giving these drugs to other animals as test subjects, but they’re giving them these drugs as patients, both in ethical and much less ethical ways. SeaWorld gives mother orcas
antianxiety medications when their calves are taken away. Many zoo gorillas have been given antipsychotics and antianxiety medications. But dogs like my own Oliver are given antidepressants and
some antianxiety medications to keep them from jumping out of buildings or jumping into traffic. Just recently, actually, a study came out in “Science” that showed that even crawdads responded to antianxiety medication. It made them braver, less skittish, and more likely to explore their environment. It’s hard to know how many
animals are on these drugs, but I can tell you that the
animal pharmaceutical industry is immense and growing, from seven billion dollars in 2011 to a projected 9.25 billion by the year 2015. Some animals are on these drugs indefinitely. Others, like one bonobo who lives in Milwaukee at the zoo there was on them until he started to save his Paxil prescription and then distribute it among the other bonobos. (Laughter) (Applause) More than psychopharmaceuticals, though, there are many, many, many other therapeutic interventions that help other creatures. And here is a place where I think actually that veterinary medicine can teach something to human medicine, which is, if you take your dog, who is, say, compulsively chasing his tail, into the veterinary behaviorist, their first action isn’t to reach
for the prescription pad; it’s to ask you about your dog’s life. They want to know how often your dog gets outside. They want to know how much
exercise your dog is getting. They want to know how much social time with other dogs and other humans. They want to talk to you
about what sorts of therapies, largely behavior therapies, you’ve tried with that animal. Those are the things that
often tend to help the most, especially when combined with
psychopharmaceuticals. The thing, though, I believe, that helps the most, particularly with social animals, is time with other social animals. In many ways, I feel like I became a service animal to my own dog, and I have seen parrots do it for people and people do it for parrots and dogs do it for elephants and elephants do it for other elephants. I don’t know about you; I get a lot of Internet forwards of unlikely animal friendships. I also think it’s a huge part of Facebook, the monkey that adopts the cat or the great dane who adopted the orphaned fawn, or the cow that makes friends with the pig, and had you asked me eight,
nine years ago, about these, I would have told you that they
were hopelessly sentimental and maybe too anthropomorphic in the wrong way and maybe even staged, and what I can tell you now is that there is actually something to this. This is legit. In fact, some interesting studies have pointed to oxytocin levels, which are a kind of bonding hormone that we release when we’re having sex or nursing or around someone that we care for extremely, oxytocin levels raising in both humans and dogs who care about each other or who enjoy each other’s company, and beyond that, other studies show that oxytocin raised even in other pairs of animals, so, say, in goats and dogs who were
friends and played with each other, their levels spiked afterwards. I have a friend who really showed me that mental health is in fact a two-way street. His name is Lonnie Hodge,
and he’s a veteran of Vietnam. When he returned, he started working with survivors of genocide and a lot of people who had gone through war trauma. And he had PTSD and also a fear of heights, because in Vietnam, he had been rappelling backwards out of helicopters over the skids, and he was givena service dog
named Gander, a labradoodle, to help him with PTSD and his fear of heights. This is them actually on the first day that they met, which is amazing, and since then, they’ve spent a lot of time together visiting with other veterans
suffering from similar issues. But what’s so interesting to me about
Lonnie and Gander’s relationship is about a few months in, Gander actually developed a fear of heights, probably because he was
watching Lonnie so closely. What’s pretty great about this, though,
is that he’s still a fantastic service dog, because now, when they’re both at a great height, Lonnie is so concerned with Gander’s well-being that he forgets to be scared of the heights himself. Since I’ve spent so much time with these stories, digging into archives, I literally spent years doing this research, and it’s changed me. I no longer look at animals at the species level. I look at them as individuals, and I think about them as creatures with their own individual weather systems guiding their behavior and informing how they respond to the world. And I really believe that this has made me a more curious and a more empathetic person, both to the animals that share my bed and occasionally wind up on my plate, but also to the people that I know who are suffering from anxiety and from phobias and all manner of other things, and I really do believe that even though you can’t know exactly what’s going on in the mind of a pig or your pug or your partner, that that shouldn’t stop you
from empathizing with them. The best thing that we could do for our loved ones is, perhaps, to anthropomorphize them. Charles Darwin’s father once told him that everybody could lose their mind at some point. Thankfully, we can often find them again, but only with each other’s help. Thank you. (Applause)

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  1. Thanks a lot for your dedication and research. I always suspected that if humans can have mental disorders, animals can truely have them also.

  2. The talk is thought-provoking and heart-warming at the same time. Actually I just got a copy of Ms.Braitman's book Animal Madness. It looks like an interesting read to me. 

  3. I once knew a trail horse who was extremely disordered, both mentally and emotionally. My job was to care for a stable full of horses that took kids on "pony rides" 7 days a week. The other horses were fairly well-adjusted and seemed to like their jobs but this one regularly threw fits – kicking, screaming, foaming at the mouth fits- when he didn't want to deal with another wailing, frightened human child on his back. It bothered me, terribly, that his owner kept him in the group stable when it was clear that this animal was in severe distress, a danger to himself and others. If he'd been mine, I would have let him roam in a large field, alone, and never force him into tack or down the same old boring trail again. I felt his pain. Most observing humans just considered him an annoyance. I heard – after I left work there – that he had to be put down after gouging his leg on a loose nail in the stall. No excuse for this kind of sadistic cruelty to animals!  I'll never forget him or the nasty human owner.  

  4. Great presentation, and I'd just watched a video before this one that showed functional MRI scans of dogs and the same areas in their brains being activated by similar stimuli as ours.
    I understand why creationists don't think animals have brains similar to humans, but it's unbelievable how long there has been a stigma for people in biology fields to think that animals have emotions similar to ours when we are animals. They used to be chastised for anthropomophisising if they suggested that animals did anything other than react instinctively to stimuli.

    I also loved the bonobo drug dealer.

  5. This hurts so much. We are the cause of our own issues and we are the cause of their issues too as we force them to live in captivity (even a house is captivity) and too often we damage them one way or another. It's very painful…

  6. Great talk! But, let's not neglect the most important mental health factor: Human Society. Jiddu Krishnamurti put it well, "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Consider how uncivilized(insert irony here) indigenous tribes are notorious for their lack of mental illness. Plus, the non-human animals most prone to mental illness…are those we've brought into our homes & zoos. Is mental illness always about sick minds…or is it sometimes a normal healthy response to a maladjusted society that's forgotten what actually makes us thrive…family, community, connection, meaning & purpose…NOT money, gadgets, and the isolation they bring?

  7. Wow, what a terrible video. "If you think your animal is traumatized, you're probably right"? That's completely untrue. Stop telling people to blame their animals instead of themselves.

    Yes, some animals can develop compulsive behaviors, but most of these behaviors can be suppressed as they age by their owners. It's the owners' responsibilities.

    Those examples of the parrot mutilating itself, the bear playing with the stick, the cat and the blinds, those are good examples. Hours and hours at a time, yes, that's not healthy and your animal probably has a problem. BUT those are extreme cases and I would argue that MOST CASES ARE NOT LIKE THAT!!!

    Seriously, the content and information in the video is good, and I do believe in this woman's work, but the way she went about this video and talk was horrible in my opinion.

    Teach people how to handle their dogs and animals, not intuitively-guess their dog's emotions and try to diagnose them and humanize them.. seriously..

  8. As a literature student thinking about continuing in the Animal Studies field, this was an interesting listen for me. In classes we always end up falling into the same old talk about "anthromoporphizing animals" and "how bad we are for doing it" and "try thinking like them" etc.
    But this is a different way of thinking about it, and I love it.
    Anthromoporphize well!

  9. The difference between Humans and animals is that animals are free. Only Humans create problems that don't exist. We always trying to fix something that doesn't need fixing.

    We've become so Obsessed with ourselves and we project that onto eachother and onto animals too. Constantly interfering with the natural flow of life. We have all gone bonkers. Haha!

  10. …yes – that's sad, but…

  11. I saved my relation…with my dog. I left my "ex" on the side of the road. Hehehe.
    But seriously, I was really moved my this talk. The final slides reminded me of the words "and a time of peace will come when the lion will lie with the sheep"… Maybe that time is closer than we think.

  12. Diet, injections, and injunctions will combine, from a very early age, to produce the sort of character and the sort of beliefs that the authorities consider desirable, and any serious criticism of the powers that be will become psychologically impossible. . . .”—-Bertrand Russell,1953 . You have been domesticated the people and animals around you are no longer natural

  13. So much goes with animal and human brains. I hardly knew  OCD  can happen with animals also, first time i came to know after watching this video on TED. Thanks for letting us know the symptoms of OCD both in humans and animals for proper diagnosis. Altogether nice informative talk from you, keep the good work going…

  14. Excellent TED talk! How did we ever think that animals do not have consciousness? It sends shivers down my spine, what we do to them in vivisection laboratories and factory farms.

    I think silviaesilvia raises a very important point, but I don't believe we cause all animal mental disorders. Animals suffer trauma, loss isolation and anxiety in the wild too.

  15. what happened to ted talks it used to have great informative topics. now we get dogs with emotional problems. POOF!!

  16. It's not anthropomorphising though. That presupposes that traits such as capacity to be depressed are in the first place human traits. It would be like saying that stating that an iron bar has mass is anthropomorphising it because humans also have mass. Clearly this is ridiculous, because having mass is just a trait that an iron bar and a human happen to have – it doesn't belong to either.

  17. In the unsupervised world if you spend every day spinning a stick, you'll starve to death. In captivity, you'll just spin that stick until someone makes a TED talk about you.

  18. I feel its strange how people can feel that strongly about animals and relate them strongly to humans and then make a statement about eating them!

  19. My pet rock was depressed.  It became so bad that he just sat there, listless, lifeless, with no emotions or passion for life. He wouldnt do anything, would just sit there.   We determined that it was because we took him away from his natural surroundings and placed him in a cage (my house).   We took him back to where we found him and released him.  Last we heard he was at peace, as his natural way of life had been restored.

  20. 7:06 i used to have a dog like that. whe had to put her down because she was getting to aggresif  to my boyfriend ,to my other dogs and other people . i still am sad i had to do that because to me she was super sweet and loving

  21. This talk is kind of missing or even omitting an interesting topic: How mental issues can arise from an overprotective and unnatural environment. If an animal has a debilitating mental disorder in the wild, it dies. In captivity, it stays alive. Same with humans. 

    If natural selection had any weight, mental disorders would be far less frequent. Because the mentally unstable, do not survive. If someone else "does the surviving for them" of course we will see many interesting traits. 

  22. It seems obvious through this short talk that all of the "mental illnesses" she describes in animals are because of their unnatural environments — animals in captivity. Not once does she talk about seeing cases of OCD in bonobos in the wild, or pacing in tigers in the wild, or swaying elephants in Africa. Do they exist? If so, then yes, mental illness can be a genetic factor. However, if none can be found, all of these problems have been cultivated through human-imposed captivity. The drugs she talks about seem to be treating only the symptoms, not the source. Behavior therapy only goes so far when the trigger is constantly enveloping the animal.

  23. I honestly forgot that many people see animals at the species level. I treat my pets like people… not human people, but individuals that react independently from another. 

  24. I loved this talk apart from when she said someone can't have a spiritual connection to animals, or something similar.
    I believe that you can though…

  25. That was great, but very anecdotal, I wish there would have been a bit more facts about brains and hormones, but otherwise a really great and informative lecture.

  26. "A righteous man regards the life of animals" – PROVERBS 12:10; "If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion & pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men" – ST. FRANCIS OF ASSISI; "Never, never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well-being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way." – MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.; "I hope to make people realize how totally helpless animals are, how dependent on us, trusting as a child must that we will be kind and take care of their needs… (They) are an obligation put on us, a responsibility we have no rights to neglect, nor to violate by cruelty…." – JAMES HARRIOT; "The greatness of a nation & its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated" – MAHATMA GANDHI

  27. wake up call, wild animals are not suppose to be pets or in a zoo!!! Exhibit A – the Bear, the Parrot, the Monkey….do you really think dogs want to fight war ?? get real!
    Her dog has issues because something happen to him, she needs to talk to Cesar Milan, this is a weak presentation.

  28. What irritates me most is the laughter in this audience. This is real, it is not funny..not funny for humans to have disorders, why dogs? Sigh

  29. This is amazing. I actually searched this topic because my cat has always exhibited some very odd behavior. I think he may actually have a minor form of OCD which is strange because I've had him since he was a baby and I've always treated him very well. This expresses itself in a few benign but odd ritual behaviors. For one, he has never stopped purring, even when he sleeps and even directly after he was neutered. I know that might seem funny but it is absolutely compulsive. He also has a very strange ritual when it comes to drinking water. It's like he can't drink it from his water bowl, instead he dips his paws in it and eventually spreads it all over the floor but then he is just fine with lapping it up after he's made a mess. These aren't terrible issues by any means and otherwise he's a really happy and normal cat. I've never really even considered that animals can suffer from compulsive behaviors and mental disorders before today but now that I see this I am pretty well convinced that they can. I think that some animals, like my cat, might even be born with some of these strange quirks just like people sometimes are.

  30. The problem is "mental illness" is a term created to basically define behavior and activities that are rated as not useful to the social system in place. If you get someone very adapted to a certain environment and put them in a different setting, there you have a "mentally ill" person.

  31. This is a working breed, I don't think it's suited to living in an apartment. The inability to adjust sounds more like it's an issue with environment. I have a sneaking suspicion that should the animal live in the country and was put to work (this breed was developed to pull carts) he would not be "a mess." 🙁

  32. I am an active foster parent at Aggieland Humane Society, and I see mental illness in shelter animals all the time. Most of the animals that come through foster care have what we call "shelter shock" where the animal does not show normal animal socialization and interests such as staring at walls/corners, not playing with toys, or not being able to eat out of bowls. I've had dogs with PTSD regarding cars and men and other inanimate objects such as shoes or newspapers. It's hard to look at animals that have been through what these animals have and say they cannot possibly have mental illnesses such as human do.

    I am a STRONG believer of treatment without medication. Like I said I have fostered many animals (well over 300 dogs and 100 cats) and I have never had to use medications for beneficial results. Time can do wonders! I also have had personal experience with medications such as SSRIs and SNRI on myself and I can honestly say that not all of them work well (or make things better). If there is an improper dosage or a weird side affect happening it is hard to see that in animals, so I would always suggest non medicational treatment first. I want to be clear that I am not stating to never use medications, I am just saying that some veterinarians are quick to jump to a pharmaceutical solution before trying other solutions. It never hurts to get a second medical opinion from other vets (:

  33. I once waved at a little pig saying hello because I love animals and I like to interact with them. He was not nice at all and his look wasnt cute. later I found out his mother was killed close to him a week ago and that he heard everything.

  34. Dogs are not smartest and not only sentient animals. Pigs have even more developed brains but they are violently slaughtered.

  35. Why…are these people laughing when she says her dog has OCD. Replace that "dog" with "friend" or "brother" and see how weird it is for them to laugh.

  36. Many of these TED talks are rather questionable, but this presentation was actually very well done, well organized, and well said.

  37. If animals have complex minds or minds, we must stop eating them! It is a non sende to claim they have mental experiences amd then usea them as means to human ends. The solution is going vegan.

  38. Love it!!! This makes me see that we not only share similar physical anatomies but also psychological anatomies (or frameworks) with animals. It is as though humans and animals are part of a psychological ecosystem, and their survival actually depends on each other. Without realizing it, we are a diverse team/network, brainstorming solutions to the same problems, looking at different perspectives and approaches based on species.

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