Kelly Brogan Will Change The Way You Think About Depression

Hey, it’s Marie Forleo and you are watching
MarieTV, the place to be to create a business and life you love. If you or anyone you love
ever suffers from stress or anxiety or depression and you want a science-backed, holistic approach
to reclaim your health on every level, this episode is for you. Dr. Kelly Brogan is a Manhattan based holistic
women’s health psychiatrist and mother of two. She’s the author of A Mind of Your
Own and coeditor of the landmark textbook Integrative Therapies for Depression. She
graduated from Cornell University Medical College, completed her psychiatric training
and fellowship at NYU Medical Center, and has a BS from MIT in Systems Neuroscience.
Kelly helps women break down the misconceptions of an outdated and broken healthcare system
that’s keeping them sick, confused, and dependent by giving them the tools to become
a happier, healthier person. She’s board certified in psychiatry, psychosomatic medicine,
and integrative holistic medicine, and is specialized in a root cause resolution approach
to psychiatric syndromes and symptoms. Kelly, thank you so much for coming on the
show. I’m so excited to be here. Thank you for
having me. So I wanted to frame this conversation from
a few different viewpoints. One, we’re gonna talk about depression but I feel like everything
that you teach about, that you write about, that you speak about also applies if we’re
feeling fatigued or stressed or that we just have a foggy brain. Is that accurate? Yeah. Struggling basically. And then the second thing, obviously your
book – it’s aimed at women. But for all of our fellows in the audience, everything
we’re gonna talk about today is equally as applicable to men as it is to women. Yeah? Yes. You can ignore the pink cover. It’s
true. It’s true. So you say depression is one of the most grossly
misdiagnosed and mistreated conditions today, especially among women. That 1 in 7 are medicated.
And you also say depression is a gift and that we should thank our bodies for giving
us this signal. What does that mean? Yeah. So the first, most important premise
is to understand what I learned after going back into the literature, you know, learning
a certain story about depression from my training as a conventional psychiatrist. I had to unlearn
a lot of that to get at the truth of what it is. And, in fact, it’s not a disease.
Not a disease in the way we think of diseases as being something you inherit, something
that’s understood in terms of the bodily biology, and then something that requires,
you know, really only one path of treatment: lifelong chemical prescriptions. Right? So depression is a diagnosis made through
a conversation like this. It’s really like a collection of symptoms and in many ways
it’s like a syndrome. So if you look at it that way, then you can understand that
it has many different potential drivers. Right? There are many paths to it. So it’s sort
of like if your toe hurts it could hurt because you dropped a hammer on it, because you have
an infection in your toenail, because you have a string tied around it too tight. And
the hurting is just an expression on your body’s part that something’s up. Right?
It’s asking for your attention. And so, you know, through my research I’ve
understood and clinical experience that there are many, many reversible, if not all reversible,
causes of depression or ways to move through it, you know, as a healing journey. And you
have to understand what is driving it in your particular case to understand how you could
possibly reverse it. And I think something about seeing it as a
gift, not that you’re… It’s provocative. I know. Not that you’re broken. Not that there’s
something inherently wrong with you or that you necessarily have to carry this with you
forever more for the rest of your life. I think that was something that really hit home
for me because there’s so much shame if you feel depressed, or at least there can
be. And I love that reframing that … no, no, no. This can be a gift, not only to wake
up to something that you can heal, but also to a process of transformation. Absolutely. I mean, it’s become my belief
that the body is one of the most sophisticated, you know, mechanisms on the planet. And we
are just beginning to look through the keyhole of how it does what it does. And so it doesn’t
really make mistakes. Any time you have a symptom, anything from a sore throat to a
headache to something like, you know, mania, it’s actually an expression on the part
of the body. It’s attempting to get your attention so that you can look at different
areas of imbalance in your life. And those can be nutritional, you know, they can be
environmental, or they can be psychospiritual. And when you begin to attend to that area,
things will shift and change. And in this way, you know, depression or really all mental
illness from my perspective, it’s the beginning of your next chapter if you pay attention
to it. And sometimes, you know, we can look at choosing to medicate it as potentially
opting out of your own journey. And it’s a very different perspective, but I see every
single day in my practice what it is to move through the experience of struggling, pain,
grief, suffering rather than attempting to stuff it in a box. So you wrote, “Not a single study has proven
that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. And depression is not about
the brain per se.” I’m curious, what are some of the primary triggers? Yeah. So I think there are probably four or
so very common ones that are highly, highly treatable. Really quite easy to reverse. And
many of them have, you know, in common that they, you know, relate to the body’s language
of distress or rebalancing, which is inflammation. This is kind of a buzzword and for a reason.
Because all of the diseases, so to speak, of modern civilization whether it’s autoimmunity
or cancer or heart disease or diabetes – and I am trying to include all mental illnesses
under this umbrella – often relate, if not always relate on some level, to the activation
of this system for rebalancing, which is the inflammatory system. It’s the immune system.
It’s the way, again, that our body attempts to adapt to a given trigger. And that trigger
can be stress related. You know, you can feel psychological stress and actually have mobilization
of inflammatory messengers from the rest of your body. Or you can eat something, you know,
that disturbs your gut balance that then drives inflammation from your gut to your brain.
So there are many, many different pathways. But most of the interventions are really quite
similar. So that’s why I love what I do because it’s really quite easy. You know,
relative to the complexities of pharmacology. You can meet the body with a set of very powerful,
elegant tools that really put everything into balance. So it’s sometimes interesting just to think
about what’s driving it even if the intervention is the same. So one of the most common ones
is blood sugar imbalance. I treat women in my practice and I would say the vast majority,
if not all of them, struggle with some degree of blood sugar imbalance. And, again, there’s
nothing wrong with the body’s response. When you eat a bagel and your blood sugar
skyrockets, your insulin is secreted like a tidal wave to suppress that blood sugar,
and then you’re dipping low and an hour and a half later you’re hangry. Right? You’re
starving, you’re irritable, even jittery, headachey. I’ve had patients who have had
frank panic attacks because of this process. Your body is not messing up. It’s meeting
an unnatural demand in the way that it knows how. It’s attempting to alert you to the
fact that you probably shouldn’t be consuming that if you want to, you know, reinforce the
best gene expression, so to speak, in all of your different systems. So blood sugar imbalance can account for things
like fogginess, insomnia, you know, you could land a diagnosis of ADHD because of it or
all types of anxiety, flatness. And it is so simple to resolve, even sometimes in 10
days to two weeks with a high in natural fat diet. Relatedly, there are a number of food-based
triggers that are almost always processed foods that I’ve come to see as really powerful
leverage points, like sort of game changers. And I would say the top two ones are wheat
and dairy. So like the best foods. Basically the things that taste the best, you know,
the things that you feel like I’m gonna have to rip out of your cold, dead hands.
You know? Because they’re … some people think like, “Well, I’d rather be depressed
than not eat pizza.” Or some people think like, “I don’t know what I would be eating
if I didn’t eat wheat and dairy.” And almost always I get excited by that because the change
that could come from that type of a relationship when adjusted is profound. I mean, there are reports in the medical literature
very recently, a 37 year old woman who was so psychotic that her family took out a restraining
order on her. She became homeless. They treated her with all sorts of medication that was
ineffective. They ultimately found out that she had wheat sensitivity, put her on a gluten
free diet for three months, she was totally normal. Totally back to her normal self. And so this is not just about weight loss
or a wellness fad. It’s a very real driver of what we are calling mental illness. And
it’s an experiment you can do on your own. You know? There’s so much information out
there on how to eliminate wheat and, you know, processed dairy that it’s really quite easy
to do and can be a massive game changer. Again, not just for your psychiatric symptoms, but
the potential side benefits are really, you know, could be a long list. So another area I focus a lot on is medications.
Because when I began to research, you know, sort of a broader truth about psychiatric
medications I left no stone unturned. So I looked at all the medications I used to take:
birth control, Tylenol, Advil, antibiotics. And I began to understand that some of these
very, very common medications have untold psychiatric side effects. You know? So you could be, for example, eating a bit
of the wrong diet and taking, let’s say, an acid blocker because you get indigestion
every time you have dinner. And over time, you know, those medications are now over the
counter and they’re only ever studied for six weeks of use. So let’s say it’s been
two years you’ve been taking this acid blocker, you develop well documented B12 deficiency.
Again, B12 deficiency, in and of itself, can drive not only catastrophic depression but
also dementia. I mean, this is, again, not like a minor, you know, side effect. And so this cascade of medication, side effects
leading to psychiatric medication prescribing, is something that it might be hard to connect
those dots if you’re not aware that it’s even possible. Right? Birth control is a big one. You know, I took
birth control for 12 years. I thought it was a feminist entitlement, you know, for me to
be able to get my period when I felt like getting it. And, again, the idea is a very
valuable one, but in practice I think women are really being victimized by this medication,
because there is literature to support the fact that it’s proinflammatory, it induces
nutrient depletion, and it can lead directly to psychiatric prescribing. I mean, there
was just a million person study completed over 13 years showing that teens who are prescribed
birth control have an 80% increased risk of being prescribed an antidepressant. It was very true, actually, for me in my early
20s when I had to get off of it immediately. Yes, sometimes it’s very clear. It was so clear … I felt like a different
human being. But, see, you should thank yourself. I totally did. I was like this is not working. Because when you have those extreme reactions,
that’s where the gift is because if it was a subtle thing, you know, you could’ve gone
five, ten, fifteen years on this medication that was subtly changing your biochemistry,
subtly changing your personality even. That’s how it felt, actually. And your whole path could’ve been derailed. Yeah. Very, very different. One of the things
that I appreciated in your book: you shared we’ve reached a point in our evolution where
our health is being outpaced by our lifestyles and how we’re biologically designed to live.
And there were three points and I thought these were so simple and yet so profound. We’re idle when our bodies want to move,
we eat unrecognizable foods, and we expose ourselves to environmental factors that assault
our cells. It is extraordinary to me how true this is and how so many of us, millions of
us, are just … we’re stuck behind our desks, we’re staring at computers, we have
electronics with us all the time, and it’s nearly impossible to get us to move. You know, whenever I talk with my family or
with close friends and I’m like, “We need to take a walk. We need to get you walking.”
And I even have to say this to myself because I can fall that easy victim to that as well
when the pressures get too high. Is this something … are these kind of the three factors that
you see so much when people come into your practice? Absolutely. And, you know, it’s almost like
we’re being reminded. That’s why I talk about, you know, depression as being a gift.
Because we’re being reminded of something we’ve forgotten. And in the medical literature
it’s actually termed evolutionary mismatch. You know, these illnesses like depression
that are skyrocketing in incidence, part of the reason is because we are living in a way
that we have not evolved to live. And so the body is basically screaming, you know, “get
back to basics.” There’s a really powerful book from the
70’s called The Continuum Concept and it’s this idea that we have evolved. Like this,
again, very elegant organism, to expect a certain set of exposures from birth. You know,
from birth all the way through infancy through the rest of our lives. And when we depart
from, that we’re gonna be called back. And the way that we’re called back to that continuum
is really through these kinds of symptoms. And that’s why anyone who has recovered
themselves, you know, I’ve put an autoimmune thyroid condition into remission, which was
really my entry point into all of these principles. Anyone who has recovered themselves and defied
conventional medical odds has done so by just getting back to basics. And it’s like they
just awaken to the simplicity of it. But often we need a bit of fear, you know, we need a
bit of struggle. Sometimes you really need to hit a rock bottom or go through a dark
night of the soul to be really awakened to what is possible if we just begin to live
the way we’re meant to live. And that’s through moving, through sun exposure,
through honoring our sleep cycles and daily rhythms. For women it’s relating better
to your hormonal existence as a cyclical process. And, of course, I feel most importantly, it’s
working with food as information. Right? Food is not what, you know, sometimes it still
is to me, which is just a way to make myself not hungry anymore. You know? Get it done
in seven minutes. That’s all I have time for. It’s a way to bridge your body and
the environment that you’re a part of. It’s an informational exchange. And when we forget
that, we’re gonna be reminded. What are, for anyone listening saying, “Okay,
this sounds incredible. I’m in. Wanna get the book. Wanna start cleaning this.” What
are some of the everyday triggers that might be hiding in their medicine cabinet or their
kitchen or underneath their sink in their cleaning materials that may be contributors
to them not feeling their best? Yeah. So I often say start with changing your
breakfast. And it’s so funny because I love to write and I blog a lot, right? And sometimes
I’ll spend three months on one blog. All of the links to the primary literature and
I spend all of this time and effort on it. Blood, sweat, and tears. And two people read
it. And then I wrote this blog about what I eat
for breakfast. What I discovered through my own healing journey was something really … a
powerful way to reverse my own blood sugar issues. And it is hands down the most viral
post I’ve ever … it took me seven minutes to write it. Literally. Isn’t that funny though? It’s like this smoothie recipe that I made
up. So it’s … so, for example, it’s made with egg yolks, with coconut oil, with
nut butter, with ghee, which is like a clarified butter that doesn’t have the protein we’re
most concerned about when it comes to sort of brain behavioral, cognition types of concerns.
And then it’s coconut water, cocoa powder, and then any kind of fruit you like. So I
use frozen cherries. It tastes like chocolate milk, it’s totally delicious. And I went
from being starving after eating cereal or, you know, like some kind of a processed bar
or a bagel. Starving in an hour and a half that now if I don’t have lunch for 6, 6 and
a half hours, it’s totally comfortable. So that is one of the simple ways to begin
to see how your entire performance in your life can change based on what you ate for
breakfast. So I’ve really developed a pretty strong
concern about most medications. I also think there’s a better way. So when you engage
in a medication intervention, not only are you opting out of that invitation, right?
So you’re not going to learn that the reason you have headaches is because, you know, of
your blood sugar imbalance or because of your wheat sensitivity or because of another medication
you’re taking. You’re never gonna learn that. So in that way, you know, it’s sort of like
if you were to take a Tylenol for a piece of glass in your foot. Like, don’t you just
want to get the glass out? It makes more sense, right? So while I have concern about the opt-out
that happens when you choose to take a medication, I also have concern about sometimes the potentially
quite significant side effects that no one told you were even possible. So, again, the common ones that I highlight
are, you know, common painkillers. I mean, there was a recent study out that showed that
Tylenol actually has emotional numbing effects. How would you ever connect those dots if you
didn’t know that the scientific literature was suggesting that it doesn’t just do this
one little thing it says it does? You know, with pharmaceutical medicine we’re sort
of under the impression we can just pull one little piece of the spiderweb and leave the
whole thing intact. But, of course, the whole thing moves when you pull a little piece of
it. Right? I think we’re starting to wake up to that,
especially for anyone who ever sees the pharmaceutical ads on tv. And you see the happy little purple
person and then the list of potential side effects, it’s like … And those aren’t even the whole story. … you may want to kill yourself and then
kill your entire family and then you’re gonna have hotdog fingers and projectile vomiting
possibly, and then 15 other things. And sometimes I will sit there with my jaw on the ground
saying, “how is this legal?” I know. I know. Well, it’s that we all have
colluded. We all have. It’s not just pharma, it’s not just doctors. It’s all of us.
Because we go to our doctors and we ask for the quick fix. You know, we ask for the magic
pill. And what I’ve really come to discover is – there’s no such thing. There really
is no such thing. That medications over promise, they underdeliver, and there’s often an
untold story about their potential side effects and there’s an easier way. It may seem more
challenging because it involves behavioral change, but it’s uncomfortable for maybe
two weeks. And then what is possible is so thrilling. I mean, it’s really profound. Yeah. That has been something very personal
for me. A few years ago we were struggling because my dad with type 2 diabetes. Yes. And got him off of all but one of his medications.
And that was a really, really big deal. And so now I’m constantly hawkish with them.
They just recently moved, my dad is going to a new doctors, and my mom had stepped in
because the doctor was trying to push more medications on him. And I was like, “Nuh-uh.
No. We’re not going there again. What do we need to reexamine in the diet and lifestyle
that we need to pump back up so he’s not going back?” That’s the thing. I mean, you know more
than that doctor does arguably. Because I had the same training that doctor did in medical
school. We have about an hour on average of nutrition-based education in medical school.
Your doctor is unfortunately totally ill equipped to help. And they want to help, but the only
tools that we’re given are pharmaceutical tools. So that’s what’s amazing about
the internet. You know? Is that the average lay person knows more about how to heal than
a conventionally trained doctor. And so my sort of mark of success in my practice
is for my patients never to see a doctor again. Including me. And I think that’s absolutely
possible when you shift your mindset and begin to trust that everything you encounter is,
again, a message you probably need to work with and that you always have the tools. That’s
why I’m really, really passionate about this 30 day intervention. And I rule with
a bit of an iron fist because I think that every adult deserves one month of their life
to learn about the relationship to their diet. And you have that information forever. You
can do with it what you want to. Right? So in that month I asked people to take out
coffee. So I practice in New York. Yeah. This is a big challenge. Coffee, alcohol is
often an even bigger ask. Even for people who don’t think of themselves as having a
problem with alcohol. I ask them to take out all grains just to make it almost simple,
but also because certain grains we want to use strategically. Things like rice get introduced
again later because they have a very special, you know, rice has a special property in terms
of seeding your gut in a good way. But we want to sort of clear the slate before we
do that. So all grains, all dairy, all sugar. And we’re really left, people sort of say
well … What am I gonna eat? But actually you’re just eating food. Right?
So my protocol, somewhat controversially – including to myself because I was a former ethical vegetarian.
Of course, back in the day that meant like Doritos and Pepsi. But nonetheless, I had
a lot of struggle ethically with the idea of progressing to a healing diet that involved
animal food. And my protocol not only involves animal food but actually red meat specifically. So we’re eating animal food, we’re eating
eggs, we’re eating fish, poultry, red meat, pork, the whole thing. And then all vegetables
are on board, as should be the case for pretty much any nutritional protocol you’re engaging.
But including starchy ones like sweet potato. And then we’re gonna eat nuts and seeds
and a lot of oil. So those oils in the smoothie I mentioned. So things like coconut oil, ghee,
olive oil, avocado. And natural salt and a ton of filtered water. And that’s it. And it ends up being, you know, simple intervention
that can shift so many different data points literally in the space of two weeks. But I
ask for the month and I ask for it with 100% commitment. No like “I was starving so I
got a piece of pizza one day.” No like “oh, my best girlfriend is getting married. I have
to have a bite of cake.” Nothing. Don’t pick that month. Pick another month where
you can really do it. Because by the end of that month you will have the information you
need. And then if you have a cup of coffee and you feel irritable and like you need a
nap 6 hours later and then you can’t sleep that night, well good. You don’t have generalized
anxiety and you’re not an irritable person and you don’t have insomnia. You just have
that relationship to coffee. Now you know. Good. So it’s about self education and really
connecting dots for your own self empowerment. There’s two things I wanna cover. One, I
can hear some people saying when you made the comment, “hopefully you’ll never have
to go to a doctor again.” I can hear people going, “But wait. I’ve just got this diagnosis
– a life threatening diagnosis.” And I can hear them railing against that. So I would
imagine that for you, and I’m curious to hear your response to this. Arming yourself
with the knowledge of how to heal your own body and understanding how your own system
relates to different foods, should you bump up against one of those things in your life
you can then take that knowledge to a particular specialist who then you can work with from
an educated standpoint. So I’m curious to hear how you … This is a great question and, again, remember
that I am totally conventionally trained, dyed in the wool. I come from the perspective
that if you were to not go to, not only a doctor but an ivy league trained doctor, then
you’re being irresponsible and reckless. So I get that mentality 100%. But the way that my path has unfolded, not
only have I healed myself from a condition that I was only ever taught in medical school
should be chronic and unremitting and even disabling, and I don’t take any prescriptions
at this point in my life. But I also had the deep privilege of working with Dr. Nick Gonzalez
who is a … who passed tragically last year, and who is a doctor who worked with end of
the road cancer patients. So terminal metastatic cancer patients. So doesn’t get worse, right,
probably than that diagnostic category. And I watched him with hundreds of people put
their cases into not only remission, which defies any medical outcomes I’ve ever read
about – and I read the literature for 4 hours every Saturday for 14 years – and
I have never heard of cases in the conventional literature with all that chemotherapy, radiation,
and surgery have to offer that matched his outcomes. 34 year survivor of metastatic pancreatic
cancer. Doesn’t exist. And he did this through nutritional protocols. And so I had the honor
of working with him, learning from him, and having him influence my own work. So for me there really is no carve out, but
the important caveat is that we often need … I think of myself a like a helper. Right?
So I’m a helper for certain people at a time and window in their life, and then they
take the reins and they are healed. And often we need a helper. We need a teacher.
We need a guide. You’re probably not going to find that in someone who has a fundamentally
different belief system than you about the body’s capacity to heal. But you will find
it in someone who shares that belief system even if they sort of do it in a different
way than you heard about from somewhere else or than you’ve been doing it. So naturopaths, chiropractors, functional
medicine trained doctors, holistically oriented doctors know this language. You know, you
will be speaking the same language. So seek out that person. Don’t argue with your doctor.
You shouldn’t be arguing with your doctor. You should be partners on the same team always
and with the same goal in mind. And so it’s becoming easier and easier to find these kinds
of people and easier to find the information on your own actually on the internet. But
I do believe in that healing partnership, I just think it’s very challenging when
you have to educate your doctor. It’s a challenging kind of dynamic. Let’s talk about the power of exercise and
meditation. So we know about … it sounds … food. Ultimately primary. Your informing
… the information you put in your body. How about exercise and meditation? Yeah. So exercise was a tough one for me,
because before I was diagnosed with a thyroid condition I never exercised. I didn’t even
understand why people would exercise. It’s really uncomfortable and it takes a lot of
time. I don’t get why people are so into it. So I went to the literature again and I found
that actually what’s called low volume, high-intensity exercise is more effective
than daily cardio. So it’s called burst training or interval training. So how awesome
is that? So you do less and you get more. So I actually only ask my patients if they’re
not already exercising to do 20 minutes a week of sweat inducing. You know, it can be
done on an elliptical, you can do military burpees, you can do jumping jacks, you can
use a jump rope. And the idea is 30 seconds of really high intensity. You know, like a
lion is chasing you kind of a thing, 90% of your effort. 90 seconds of recovery. And you
do 8 cycles of that. And that’s sort of like a gateway ideally.
I happen to think that for the women I work with, for the population I work with, that
dance is actually really important and movement. And I hate that kind of exercise. The 20 minutes
I just described is not enjoyable for me. So I … that was a gateway for me. Now I
dance several times a week. And I feel like not only do I exercise, but I experience a
kind of freedom, joy, and feminine empowerment that I wouldn’t have access to if I was just
exercising to exercise. But often you need to get there and find your own favorite type
of movement. But so I only ask for 20 minutes a week. The meditation piece was another point of
resistance for me. Because I got with the food thing, I put my condition into remission,
and I thought, “Okay, cool. I’m done.” But I was still my, like, stressed out self
just living like now a food-based neurotic lifestyle. And I really was thriving on stress
in a way that, again, I was invited to look at by the fact that after my second pregnancy
I had a bit of a relapse thyroid-wise and I … that was when I changed. That was when
I said, “okay, there’s something I’m missing here.” And I have followed the literature on meditation,
it’s like 40 years of literature that says that you can just meditation for 20 minutes
listening to someone talk you through a meditation and all sorts of gene expression changes in
your body. From longevity genes to insulin sensitivity genes. It’s so simple. Do it.
And I never did it. Still. So for me the game changed when I discovered Kundalini Yoga meditation.
And it’s a very, very old branch of yoga. Some people argue it’s the oldest branch,
because it incorporates all different kinds of modalities from hand movements to different
kinds of breath to different kinds of mental focus and sometimes movement. And it’s … I sort of think of it as meditation
for people who suck at meditating because it keeps you really busy. So a given meditation
I might have my fingers doing a certain thing, breathing in through my nose, out through
my mouth, and in through my mouth and out through my nose. I might be looking at a certain
place. And imagining sort of hearing a mantra in my head. And so it sort of gives you the
benefit even if you’re thinking about … if you can still think about what you need to
buy at CVS. You know? It works, so to speak. And the other reason that I like it is because
you can start with three minutes. And so I ask my patients to start with three minutes
a day and I’ll assign them a given meditation. You can go online and you can Google “Kundalini
Yoga meditation digestion” or “heartbreak” or “intuition” or “anxiety” and there
are thousands of them, totally free that you can do on your own. And even if they say start
at 11 minutes, you can just start at three. And so everyone has three minutes. Maybe not
five, but everyone has three. And so I ask people to just set their alarm clock for 5
minutes earlier and it’s a point of entry. And, again, I’ve dug up the literature on
this which says that all sorts of things can shift and change, but maybe most importantly,
you’re sending your body – you’re sending your nervous system a signal of safety. And
you’re telling yourself everything is actually okay. Because I wouldn’t be stopping for
even three minutes if I was in the fight or flight state that I am in the rest of the
day. So it’s almost like an interruption of a cycle or a pattern. For me, my entire
nervous system was rewired in two months of early morning meditation. I started with three
minutes and now I do 45 minutes every morning. No compromise, no exceptions, like no excuses.
And I … I need it. You know? I don’t think I would be able to … I would’ve gone much
farther on that path without another diagnosis had I not made this change. So I’m really
passionate about it. Thank you so much for your work, Kelly. I
am just in love with your book and who you are and what you’re bringing to the world.
And I want to wrap up with a question that you ask actually on your about page. Yes. And I think it’s a powerful question for
everyone in our audience to consider. I’m curious why you have it on your page. So “what
is the happiest, healthiest version of yourself that you can imagine?” How can this question
help us? I think it’s interesting because “happy”
is a word that I think we need to almost abandon in a way. It’s like a gateway to a bigger
question, which is like, “do we really just want to be happy?” Because I think that
so many of us feel deep down something is missing. Like something is off. And we don’t
know how to get to the thing we know is missing, but we have some sort of hope or faith that
eventually we’ll find it. Otherwise we wouldn’t just be on this hamster wheel punching the
clock to survive until we die, which so many people feel they are doing. Right? So when I ask people to imagine their more
vital self, it’s more than just some sort of fantasy exercise. There’s actually data
to suggest that when you sit and inhabit something that you want for yourself, it becomes more
likely. It’s called morphic resonance in quantum physics. So the idea to sort of inhabit
what it is that you think would be that … the fulfilment of that missing piece. And so for most of the women that I work with
it’s, you know, it’s not feeling like euphoria every day. It’s actually feeling
gratitude. I think of gratitude as being the antidote to depression. Because when you can
feel that expansive sensation, and you can experience really the wonder of it all, you’re
never gonna be able to move into that space of victimization or rage or frustration and
hopelessness. It’s almost impossible. So it’s a powerful exercise to begin to just
play with this idea that something maybe you can’t even quite envision yet is possible
for you. Thank you so much for coming on the show,
Kelly. Total pleasure. Total pleasure. Thank you. Now Kelly and I would love to hear from you.
So we talked about a lot of different things today, but I’m curious: what’s one specific
action you can start taking starting right now to reclaim your health? Leave us a comment
below and let us know. Now, as always, the best conversations happen
after the episode over at, so go there and leave a comment now. And when
you’re there, if you’re not already, be sure to subscribe and become an MF Insider.
You’ll get instant access to a powerful audio I created called How To Get Anything
You Want and you’ll also get some exclusive content and special giveaways and insights
from me that I just don’t share anywhere else. Stay on your game and keep going for your
dreams because the world needs that special gift that only you have. Thank you so much
for watching and I’ll catch you next time on MarieTV. Ready to find your voice and sell with heart?
We’ll show you how. Get started now with our free writing class at
Side effects include enlarged profits. The body is one of the most sophisticated
mechanisms on the planet. And we are just beginning to look through the keyhole of how
it does what it does. And so it doesn’t really make mistakes.

About the author


  1. The spider web metaphor. She NAILED IT. As a pharmacist, I feel this way every dayyyyyyyy, I am doing a disservice to humans

  2. Absolutely shocked that she recommends eating animal products. They are the MOST inflammatory things you can put into your body. Not to mention they are killing the planet and completely unethical.

  3. I so am impressed with a fresh perspective ….all I have heard of is meds meds meds…..whoa some make u so drowsy. … eat and cure unself ….. now I love it

  4. Marie you are an amazing person. You changed me. Everytime I feel bad I run to your channel and watch one of your videos. Thank you <3 Please never stop what you are doing. You are much needed ! <3 <3 <3

  5. I absolutely enjoyed this talk with Kelly. And agree with her, 100%! It may take baby steps to get to get there, but well worth the effort. I am reversing high blood sugar by doing exactly what she talked about. It works! Thank you so much for bringing her on, Marie!😗

  6. I have recently switched jobs to have more physically active job, so that would help a bit. But after hearing this interview, it's Kudalini Yoga meditation! Straight away! 🙂

  7. The moment you hear a comment along the lines of "An average lay person knows more about how to heal than a conventionally trained doctor"

    Alarm bells should be going off in your head and red flags should be being raised.

    Your doctors do know best, they have trained for years to obtain the knowledge they have. And their knowledge is backed with science.
    The though that a lay person knows better is not only anti-science but also dangerous as people following the advice they give are at serious risk.

  8. Thank you, Brilliant, I am a channel and worked for years as a Medical Intuitive/self empowerment coach, food, starch inflammation so big, and people so unwilling to give it up so I am Very Grateful that you as a medical professional are teaching people how to eat. Thank you Love and Light Christine and The Animals

  9. Hands down one of the most eloquent, intellegent humans being I've ever heard speaking. I literally had to stop working with my hands and come closer to the screen, she's captivating! Also, I've never seen Marie be this quiet during one of her shows, she knows too!

  10. Kelly Brogan is an anti-vaccine quack. She's dangerous and reckless. And you just gave her a huge platform. Shame on you, Marie.

  11. Marie, Did you know that this quack blames things like anti-depressants for blinding women into voting for Hillary Clinton? Do you know she cites Julian Assange on her blog as one of the world's greatest activists? Did you know she supported Trump in order to make the system fall apart so we can, together, begin to grow the tendrils of a new, better system to replace it."??? You gave this quack a huge platform here. I sincerely hope you know not what you do, just made a mistake, and don't condone her dangerous, extremist views.

  12. The BEST interview you've ever done Marie. Depression is not an anti-depressant deficiency. We need to look at the underlying cause.
    Much love!

  13. It's interesting to me that with such an expensive education, she relies on her personal experiences for a basis of her protocol. (Not that there's anything wrong with that) wonderful episode 👍🏻 it definitely takes work to unravel how our lifestyle influences our mental states.

  14. Agh Damn, I was so on board with this until she said "morphic resonance" and did not flinch. Making every other unflinching statement preceding that, totally open to scrutiny. There is absolutely no evidence supporting Rupert Sheldrake's morphic resonance theory. It's not Quantum Mechanics dammit.

  15. I loved how she mentioned that foods that cause imbalances are mostly wheat and dairy because I've been kind of going down that road to treat endometriosis. No dairy and red meat, but lots of whole cereals, rice, corn and others like quinoa, lots of fish and legumes and sometimes eggs and obviously vegetables and fruits. I have been pain free since October 🙂

  16. "Depression can be seen as a gift." Hmn, I wonder if this person has ever had depression. I don't know why but I don't like anything she says, she comes off as if she knows everything and her truth is the only truth. I think that's very dangerous and mental illness is so complex and different from person to person, I find it unlikely that you can cure it by just a change in diet alone. Magic tricks never help.

  17. Thank you for having Kelly Brogan on your show, Marie! I recommend her book to a lot of my patients. There are so many good nuggets of wisdom in this interview!

  18. For ALL PEOPLE AGAINST MEAT ….. I would investigate if it is an ego-based EXCUSE to not do the hard work to truly live a better life. Listen you only deprive yourself, if ANIMAL CRUELTY is soooo vital to your days, then make a waiver around that and do all the rest, or if not then continue as you may have been, but for me it is a life changer tip, and one that agrees with my instinct. Thank you Marie for this wonderful introduction!! This is soooooo wonderful!! I am a 39 year old woman, mother and cancer survivor, and I have been left with half of a thyroid and all sorts of odd "syndromes" since that surgery, and I must say that the MEAT…… the fats, the dancing, the yoga mediation moments, the VEGETABLES!!!!! , and all the wonderful things she mentions have been delved in by me personally in my one person search for HEALING as I have not had the best of times health wise since these cancer saving surgeries. THANK YOU MARIE for this wonderful AID in self discovery because it has made me realize my intuition has been lurking in the right places and that I can continue this path to success. At times I do forget and get frustrated and feel at a dead end of thyroid peace, but this just amazed me a filled me with GRATITUDE and JOY for life.

  19. I loved this video. Team Forleo!! you should open the possibility to make community traslation for your videos, I'd love to help in spanish 🙂

  20. I loved this. I thought it was so interesting that she made the blood sugar/depression connection because I have depression and my physician recently discovered that I also have low blood sugar. Watching this gave me hope that there are even more changes I can make to help myself mentally!

  21. loved seeing this perspective and approach to mental health. Some aspects I agree she should have been more careful with saying. It is true that a lot of ailments we suffer could be made better through nutrition and maybe even in conjunction with modern medicine and she understood we may turn to doctors for serious issues. But we've yet to find that balance and it's become so controversial.

    I've seen many of these diets become more vegan propaganda based on emotional and environmental agendas when health and nutrition really comes down to nutrients. Those diets end up falling short on the rest because they are solely focused on not eating meat.

    Since raising my protein intake I have felt so much better in all aspects of my life and it worries me when people just give up meat without paying attention to the rest of their diet. I think this is a great start for people to take a look and see how it really makes them feel to change their diets. Do this with 5 fermented pea protein shakes a day and you will find it so easy to not eat meat OR dairy and wheat (especially SUGAR!) There is always a way for you to try it yourself with what you believe is right and you will slowly learn what works. I think this is the biggest point to take from this video.

    Demonizing a doctor with opposing moral views doesn't really help progress. Science is about testing things out. Ultimately what works for you is what works.. I'm worried her views may be a little "new agey" but I might check out her book to see if she goes more in depth on why the animal protein etc..thats a long response but that is my action for my health, Marie.

  22. I can understand where she is coming from and I do think diet does play a role on mental health/ wellness. However, as someone that has been diagnosed with clinical depression I have noticed MAJOR changes from my medication. I am not suicidal and feel much better. CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG; but after watching this video I felt guilty on taking medication for my clinical depression and I don't think that is right! As a psychiatrist you should know that every individual situation is different and you shouldn't generalize that everyone should not be taking medication because unfortunately many people like myself suffer from very severe level of depression. IF YOU ARE TAKING MEDICATION & want to change because of this video please talk to your doctor or psychiatrist first! It is very harmful for your body if you just suddenly stop & in some cases it may not be recommended, so please consult with your doctor before. All in all, i think that the way she brought her point across is absurd and ignorant because she's generalizing but I do agree to some level that diet play a role, but with the help of medication as well in some cases.

  23. So much good information mixed in with dangerous opinions represented as "fact". Please everyone remember to examine ALL of the statements separately- I truly think she has some messages here that could improve your life, but so many reckless ideas mixed in. I wish Marie had countered/questioned any of these opinions shared. I really love Marie TV but this episode is not one that I would share and I feel is really questionable. I worry about my mentally ill loved ones in this world who are hearing that we shouldn't see doctors. She expressed this sentiment or something similar so many times in this interview. It scares me because she is beautiful and convincing and shares a lot of hopeful actionable advise people can use to better their lives through decreasing inflammation and going after the root causes of depression – but this doesn't seem like a WHOLE approach at all. I don't know that she's addressed the harm these statements may cause at all. Marie, please consider these messages you are championing on your show. It just seems like you are nodding along with ALL of them!

  24. Am I the only one sobbing??? Just thank you! My one action to change my life today was watching THIS!!! I'm planning my 30 day intervention!!!

  25. Yeah, no so the problem here is that she's oversimplifying "depression" as just a collection of symptoms, most likely from blood sugar imbalances and whatnot. Sometimes, this is true, not eating the right food can put you in a sort of depression, because you aren't getting the right nutrients to keep you going throughout the day. But you can't use this as an argument to disregard pharmaceutical medicine, because unfortunately depression is not as cut and dry as "eat the right foods, you'll be fine." Many people need prescription medicine just to get through their day without feeling the weight of depression on their backs.

  26. I know quite a few people who have been helped by Dr. Brogan, myself included. Thank you so much for this interview Marie!

  27. Marie, this was an incredible episode! It spoke to me, which means I know it's meant for me. Thank you to you both!

  28. Hi Kelly, I'm wanting to share this and not being able to …can you help …? I see I can't get to your face book page either…

  29. The practice of medicine is based on evidence. Where is the evidence that Dr. Brogan's protocol effectively treats major depression, bipolar disorder, etc.? I'm surprised and disappointed that Marie Forleo is giving this non-scientific approach an audience. If mental illness is "quite easy to reverse" then where is the research? Making outrageous claims that you can cure mental illness without publishing studies is just misleading vulnerable people. Marie Forleo should remove this video until Dr. Brogan can back up her claims with studies.

  30. I love many of the videos and information shared on this channel. But, this falls very short.
    Holistic science? I’m sorry I’m not buying any of this.

  31. I LOVE LOVE LOVE your channel!! I love finding Kelly Brogan. She has some awesome insights to our health! I am watching new videos, listening to new podcasts that open myself up to my own empowerment and how I can help others. I am working on a 9 day Habit Changing Challenge. And that is being grateful but also avoiding any type of focus on negativity that surrounds me to positive ways of dealing with that negativity. Thank you so much for all of your interviews, your shares, your own insights….Marie Forleo, you are AMAZING!!! As you are too Kelly Brogan!

  32. A couple of thoughts: I was medicated for 15 years on anti-depressants. They didn't work for me. However, my brother, who has schizophrenia, very much needs his meds. Also, gluten makes me depressed. I get bloated and lethargic, too, but depression is a very clear side-effect of gluten when I eat it. I was later tested and I've got Celiac's. So no gluten for me. Treatment for me is in some measure diet, yes, but much of my emotional difficulty (including depression) is because of trauma, which I'm in treatment for with a therapist who uses somatic techniques (Somatic = getting into the body). Way, way more effective in my case. But some of my friends swear by meds, so I think there are many approaches to understanding and treating depression.

  33. I didn't read 100 % of comments … perhaps 200+ and along the way you catch things or rather I do.Over 60 years I have taken too many meds being told it'll fix it. They are lying and having been trained as a nurse 2 times … the medical communities don't want interference with the truth …. I have created so many things like articles wondering why. I don't know Kelly Brogan but I see so many of you saying bulls__t. You can add me to that and it won't hurt my feelings one bit. I like her just want to help wherever I can. I'm long into a book about truth and all I can suggest look for the facts if only to prove this or that person is full of it … maybe you'll scare yourself, or find "they" might be not be so full of it … only 20%!

  34. I am a vegan and Kelly Brogan is my no. 1 hero in this world. If you suffer from depression or your mother is in a schizohphrenic ward, being highly medicated with stuff that has the most indescribable side-effects…….you come to adore a person that speaks out about this, that has done her homework, that has the integrity to turn against her own peers, to do different. She cures by telling people what to NOT eat……….and GLUTEN is THE ELEPHANT in the room here…..together with dairy. The literature about gluten and psychiatric disorders is just now coming out and it is mind-blowing ad heart-breaking all at once. Kelly Brogan is on he forefront of people who help without hurting (=horrible meds). This person to me is so so so so admirable. I really do not care what she eats and I do not care what she tells people to eat……I care about what she tells people NOT to eat……because this is where the healing lies. There are millions of people out there who are NOT vegan while I am……I can not hate all of those, that would be far to exhausting. Unfortunately all of the Doctors who RIGHTLY SO advocate against GRAINS and DAIRY nowadays (backed up by thousands of studies) come to the conclusion that so you must stuff your face with bonebroth or grassfedwhatever or eggyolks (SUPER-YUCK!!)………….nowbody seems to underdstand that you can easily live on fruits and vegetables, AND ditch the animal products AND ditch the grains all at the same time.
    But that said: Dr. Kelly Brogan to me is a person that makes history (never met her in person but would love to get an appointment with her, but she lives on the other side of the ocean AND her agenda is booked for 2-3 years…no joke) and it was such a pleasure to see two women I admired for some time now, together in this video. One of your best videos, Marie

  35. i love this video so so much. i definitely will look to website of Kelly. Thank you Marie for sharing! much love to you awesome, smart and beautiful women!

  36. Mostly nicely said but watch her on Joe Rogan, shes nuts, using pseudo-science and giving dangerous advice…and praising red meat while her mentor died of heart attack, what a coincidence..

  37. Hopefully someone knowledgeable can answer this question. Lately I have been opening up to coffee b/c caffeine helps the brain function. Is tea also something to taper off from your diet?

  38. I'm sure that people who lost a friend or family member to suicide will appreciate a psychiatrist re-framing major depressive disorder, bipolar disorder and other psychiatric conditions as a "gift". When your toe hurts it doesn't usually kill you or cause devastating health, social and financial consequences. Misleading the public about a potentially fatal health condition isn't cute, funny or "empowering."

  39. This video set me on a whole new track.  I'm still in process, but as a result of watching this, I did a lot of reading and research and eventually signed up to Dr. Kelly Brogan's Vital Mind Reset programme, which is life-changing.  Thank you, Marie, for introducing us to new and wonderful people through your informative and personable interviews.

  40. I am on Sertraline…..I have been since 2008….I live in in a remote area without psych. doctors and am not sure what to do going forward. Thank you for your interview….

  41. Marie and Kelly, you are both Angels! Thank you, Marie, for introducing and interviewing wonderful ideas and people whom I have probably never ever heard about it at the other side of the world. Thank you, Kelly, for all you do! You guys both wonderful and intelligent. I love listening to you and being empowered and inspired. Please, DO FILTER the negative comments😉below.

  42. Very useable information. Love the idea of starting daily meditation with only 3 minutes. Breaks the barrier of resistance and creates a new powerful habit.

  43. This is an amazing episode! She blew my mind when she mentioned the blood sugar connection to certain foods and your mood. I cant wait to read this book.

  44. Getting truly hydrated with excellent quality ionized alkaline water is a great place to start healing depression … I bought a kangen water machine

  45. What type of yoga was mentioned @30:40? Didn't catch it.. :/ please tell if someone got it, that would be really helpful. 🙂

  46. Gratitude is not the antidote alone. A healthy life style and positive, encouraging & honest people around are pretty important elements.

  47. Some excellent but some dangerous information here. Be careful. Some people have medical conditions that absolutely require prescription medications and will NOT be cured with all the gratitude, meditation, removing foods from your diet, I know from personal hard experience of this.
    What I am hearing here is that a lot of people have problems with BLOOD SUGAR LEVELS – too much caffeine (which causes blood sugar crashes) , eating sugary foods, eating white bread, processed foods. As we age this gets more of a problem. Myself and everyone I know have no problems eating wholemeal bread or dairy so I do not agree with taking them out of a balanced diet. I personally will be minimizing sugar, caffeine, fruit juices, animal meat, whilst eating a diet consisting of fruit, vegetables, nuts, fish, grains, eggs and dairy. Don't forget to exercise, socialise and learn new skills. Love. x

  48. I will try this 20' exercises ( changing high and low intensity) and I took note of her breakfast recepie in another youtube video. Let´s give it a try.

  49. I love Dr. Brogan. Everything she says is something that I've thought but dismissed because I'm not a doctor. But that gut feeling was there. I remember being 20 years old, in college, not sleeping, drinking a ton, eating poorly, and not exercising. I went to the campus clinic complaining of terrible headaches. They had me fill out some paperwork and then wrote me a prescription for an antidepressant! Of course I did not fill that prescription. I figured out that hey, drinking water and sleeping and exercising and not getting drunk every night will really help headaches lol.

  50. kelly brogan is known for her pseudo scientific not proven false treatments suggestions. Of course she's right that we should take a more holistic look on depression but she is narrowing the view just in an other way.

  51. Food is the panacea? Seriously? It’s called LOVE. A lot of depressed people have unsupportive families and no friends. In short nobody fucken loves them. They are lonely to the core. I had depression for 17 damn years and it was only when I met a man from a small island in the middle of the Indian Ocean (Île de la Reunion) that loved me and he loved me so much he healed me. The fucken psychiatrists I saw for 17 years kept piling on the pills. It’s a psychological illness why not treat it psychologically? I’ve been weaning off my medication for the past two years. I started doing it on my own because the psychiatrist wanted to attribute my well being to the drugs instead of my best friend helping me psychologically and being a rock of emotional support for me. I started weaning off the meds without the psychiatrists approval. Guess what happened? No depression or other issues. Recently I went to see my family doctor and she agreed I was doing extremely well and she said she will lower the dose of the medication until I am fully weaned off. Haha! Love rules the day. Food is neither here nor there, it’s psychological for God’s sake! You need love to live happily.

  52. i survived a horrific 550 plus days if depression plus my mother was fighting cancer and my old father was taking care of her.When my mothers cancer was detected first i was not affected at all But when her cured Cancer made a reentry i slipped slowly in very deep depression a very good doctor diagnozed it as PTSD i refused to take medication for many days but after taking medication for a few months i was cured. Trust me even God hates a mental patient. Mental patients are dismissed as moody eccentric people. no one wants them no one helps them
    Unless a good doctor somehow finds you
    Dr Brogan i am an indian .
    Can i send you my terrifying fighting against the mental cancer called depression.
    the frustrating thing about depression is that the oatienr does
    not accept he is ill
    my mother forced me to go to the good doctor
    After 37 years of on and depression i am an amazingly better person due to my father mother a very great friend and a very rare good doctor. i think my mothers illness the return of Cancer proved too much for me my medicibe today is A tablet trade named D Veniz 100 mg daily. Doctor Can i send you my story?

  53. It would be a delicious however expensive smoothie…
    Surely a smoothie with balanced ingredients is healthier than a bagel or a donut….and will keep u fuller for longer compared to processed carbs

  54. Horribly dangerous and reckless advice. I've 15 years of first responder experience and her approach, whilst noble, is nothing short of fantasy.

  55. I saw the documentary HEAL on Netflix yesterday. Would recommend that people interested in understanding how the body has the capacity to self-heal, should see it. Kelly was featured on the documentary and it's almost divine to land on this video the very next morning – so Thank you Marie and Google. I swear by meditation. I also swear by atleast 10 mins of dancing or simply 10 mins of stretching every day., or a 20 min walk. It can really lift up our mood. Just connecting with the body and realizing how it continues to serve us despite what we put it through, emotionally, psychologically and physically, is humbling, gratifying and nothing short of sacred for me. Like Kelly says, "The body never makes a mistake."

  56. What's been working for me not feeling hungry is working out in the hot 95 plus degree weather fir an hour or two here in Texas and drinking a ton of water… I feel really comfortable afterwards

  57. She's right… Happy is bullshit…. I I've never in all my 55 years ever said or thought "i wanna be happy "….WTF?…. Fuck that…. Happy… GTFOH… HAHAHAHA

  58. I absolutely love Kelly! If you have mental health or other health issues, consider toxicity and or nutrient deficiency as the root. Mercury exposure from dental amalgams should be suspect if you have them. I didn’t used to believe until I fully researched the issue. I had mine safely replaced by a holistic dentist. Watch “Smoking Teeth” on YouTube. Blessings 🙏

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